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One of two Christmas gifts for the friends of Gwaith-i-Phethdain is Sindarin translation of a fragment of Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth or ‘The Debate of. That is not the voice that the Wise hear out of the darkness and from beyond it. Nay, lord, the Wise among Men say: “We were not made. It takes the form of a conversation between Finrod and a human wisewoman named Andreth, who talk about the relationship between elves.

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And he asked if she did not have the same bonds.

After writing this post, I sent an e-mail to the timeline author with my reasoning here. Finrod speaks to her then of the subject that has been underlying every line of this story, though we did not know it: This added moment with him would be very great, I think. A conversation andreyh Finrod and the Human loremaster Andreth who happens to be Beren’s great-aunt, although that isn’t important.


Put away at least that thought, which comes out of the Darkness, and then our speech together will not have been wholly in vain. Contents 1 Introduction 2 The debate 2. Please see our frequently asked questions. Finrod saw that nothing within Arda could fully counteract or heal the Evil shy of Eru himself, for “it was unthinkable that Eru would abandon the world to the ultimate triumph and domination of Melkor. The lore did not have the concept that they would die when the world died, as the Eldar did she had only just learned that knowledge from him.

So I deem, or death would not be found at all in this world which he did not design but Another. This reminds me of something I’ve always been curious about in the tolkien universe. Andreth protested the end was always painful, for Men, so it was of little consequence.

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Before he left, he took her hand, and she asked him where he was going.

Volumes 10 – 12 have tons of awesome stuff like this in it. The debate then circled back on ay first question of Man not being intended to die. Of this idea, she had many questions, and then mentioned the Old Hope of Men.


Finrod asked if she knew any tales at all ahhrabeth a time before they knew death, and she said only that perhaps Adanel would know such a story.

Finrod did not know what that way may be though. This isn’t because we’re humourless and don’t think Tolkien’s work should invite humour of course it does!

Fragment of Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

He continued that perhaps they Men were beyond the scope of the Valar for Men govern themselves within Arda under the hand of the One. We’re no longer the only Tolkien-themed subreddit! Finrod explained that the fates of Men and Quendi were too different, and those who join across this divide find more sorrow than joy. Since Finrod had already guessed that Men had been specially assigned a redemptive function, he probably guessed that the coming of Eru into the world would primarily finrkd concerned with Men and with “an imaginative guess or vision that Eru would come incarnated in human form.

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

Be respectful and friendly to your fellow posters. This caused Finrod to worry about the potential scope of Melkor’s power. Christianity teaches clearly that death is an unnatural thing, imposed upon men because of the fall of Adam.

And if finrd valour of the Eldar fails here, then their despair will be deeper. But is this indeed Estel? I have conversed with the Valar who were present at the making of the Music ere the being of the World began. Do not your own people believe this too?

It was written to exhibit “the generosity of Finrod’s mind, his love and pity for Andreth, and the tragic situations that must arise in the meetings of Elves and Men in athrabety ages of the youth of the Elves. Jan 10, Messages: Therefore echoes of this can be seen in Andreth’s words, in the Athrabeth. I have not found anything substantially “new” in the other volumes but have them all, please correct me if I’m wrong!

Email required Address never made public. Or the one that “blotted out” every living thing except Noah and his passengers, because he no longer was pleased with his creation? If Man was born in the same year as the Sun and Moon, then perhaps Tolkien has the Gap theory in mind.


This should go without saying, but treat people as you wish to be treated. In any way when reading any volume of HoME we must take care to note that the published Silmarillion is in many places contradictory with the other texts those of HoME. From the Catholic School I attended when I was a child. He wished to know the points of comparison the tokens and remindersand how Men seem to have a memory of things before they have begun to learn about them.

Next time, the epic battles start and the First Age will have little more of peace and beauty to speak to us. Whither you go may you find light.

Then we have none. But, as Eru would not relinquish his work to Melkor, then Eru, his greater, must indeed reclaim it.

This text was originally intended to be the last Appendix of The Silmarillion. Now, he remained young while she grew old. We’re all fans of Tolkien’s work and it’s hard to vinrod canonically correct all the time. I would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet, when I could no longer run beside him.

That’s not to say you have to be fijrod LOTR scholar or Tolkien academic to post or enjoy this subreddit, but that we’d prefer not to have image macros or movie gifs filling up this forum. Mith — original artwork used in design by John Howe and Ted Nasmith. Or were we ever so? She replied that since they already had their lore, they did not need the lore of the Elves, and their ancient lore stated that they were: This hope was simply that One would enter into Arda, heal man from their wound, which Andreth seemed to think was death and mend all the Marring from beginning to end.